Bounces and their place in Momentum Mod: Page 2

Bounces and their place in Momentum Mod

Mac

CaWU Also finding bounces on your maps during testing will be much easier, as you will have an offline bchecker, which most people running local servers in tf2 do not have.

Lumia

fishy It's a perfectly useful mindset. at some point you have to decide whether a strat is a cool new thing or a glitch that needs to be fixed. In my opinion, unintended bounces are closer to glitches. and yes, I know they are executed the same way, but they aren't obvious like intended ones with given setups.

fishy

Lumia they are though. they have setups. we're not talking about unintended random or angled bounces here, which are already being nixed/have been nixed. CaWU is right- it differs on level of experience. i might look at a jump and think "there's probably a bounce here" where a newer player wouldn't think about it. we're looking at improving the mechanic, not removing it

Lumia

I guess it's just a matter of mindset. The rj mindset seems to be "if it's possible, do it," which is completely fine, it's just part of the mode. Other modes work differently though and that's where I'm coming from. Similarly unintentional, but perfectly consistent, mechanics are considered as undesirable map bugs in other modes, and I see unintended bounces the same way.

Either way, if a mapper wants to not have bounces in their map, they can do that as is. But in porting older maps, I still think we need to consider if some of those unintentional bounces should be removed or not, especially if the mapper is around to give feedback or if it trivializes otherwise interesting things.

fishy

fishy this should probably be case by case

Lumia

so we've agreed this whole time. nice

but now there's still the question of whether or not we'll even be able to do that? the code can't tell a random setup bounce from a consistent setup one, unless the mapper has a way to specifically say "in this area, allow the player to do a crouched jump off bounce" or somesuch. Unless you put those all over every teleport in the map, unintentional bounces can't exist, since they will all be disabled in order to fix random setup bounces.

Lumia

I think Mac's idea from before was to simply disable all bounces when being propelled by an explosive jump, so only bounces where you start from a ground position would work. There would be some code to handle ceiling smashes as well.

If we implement that, we could also implement special "bounce indicator" entities that mappers can add, that highlight specific brush surfaces with a pattern or color to show the player how to do them. It would be part of our QA process for rj maps to have all jumps which are intended to be completed with a bounce be properly indicated to the player. That would mean that we:

no longer have many or most random bounces
intended bounces are clearly shown the player and we can teach them how to do them
unintended bounces would be "hidden," but can still be found by experienced players using whatever our version of bcheck is going to be

879m

How about this (pretend lumia didn't snipe me while I typed). When a player walks off, cwalks off, jumps off, ctaps off or hits a ceiling they get a flag which allows them to bounce. Being hit by a rocket would remove this flag. If they hit a surface which happens to be at a bounce height they can bounce. This would remove random, angled and walkshoot bounces while keeping consistent setups.

I don't think that a standardized way of telling players "this is a bounce" is needed on a map, as long as bounces are introduced as a thing that exists to players and there's bcheck.

fishy

as long as this only applies to designated bounce triggers- pretty good solution

879m

fishy What would be the purpose of a bounce trigger if this was how bounces were handled?

fishy

879m So you couldn't just bounce on any surface. lots of jumps would become completely skippable in that case

879m

fishy You'd still be limited to actual bounce heights. Any skippable jumps would already have been skippable.

fishy

my bad- missed that

gorge004

Speaking strictly about rj maps, the amount of unintended bounce on wallpogo jumps is very limited. It is far far more common and a problem in sj maps.
You'll see most unintended bounce in older wallpogo only maps that got totally destroyed when consistent bounce setups were found.
For a standard map, the amount of jumps that suffer from that is very small. Historically, people started preventing stndard jump/walkoff type bounces around 2015 when those were discovered, most bounce left after that are either an angle setup that was found later or an intended bounce. But again, the amount of wallpogo jumps suffering from an unintended ceiling smash bhop is so small it should be easy to deal during porting with a case by case basis.

I don't think predeciding the fate of every unintended bounces is a good idea. Some jumps suffer from them, some are actually enjoyable in a speedrun. Given the small pool of bounces we'd have to deal with, I think it's fair to decide on a case by case jump whenever they come up.

riotbz

Only allow bounces if the jump is meant to be bounced. I also think they should be possible from any height, adds a cool element for controlling speed. Nothing interrupts flow on a great map more than a "wallpogo" jump that you have to land to start the bounce setup on. Regarding which type of bounce (crouched, uncrouched, bhop, powerbounce), I think it would be better to keep the bhops and powerbounces as tick-perfect inputs as they are now. They're more versatile and (usually) faster, so there should be an equal risk/reward for going for them. Sure it would make the run on momentum be slightly different to the run on TF2. It's a different game. Especially with things like regen, edgefix and the lack of wallbugs.

Edit: To clarify, I mean all types of bounces should be available on jumps that are intended to be bounces.

fishy

idk about allowing intended bounces from any height. yes its a different game, but no other mode makes that large of an effective deviation to my knowledge

also regen will be addressed at some point- it will be emulated through shot limit triggers

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