Remove yawspeed bindS (not bind in singularity)

Jabra

I will in the text below assume that any cheat can be detected (because I don't know enough about that and therefore can't take it into my consideration).

I have heard about surfers or "strafe gamers" using several yaw speed binds for a map instead of just having one.
The problem with this is ...

First of all it works. It can give a competitive advantage which means everyone can become forced to use this.
The reason why this is a disaster is that it increases learning time which implies that it reduces time spent on competing - without offering anything fun (whether it is fun to craft yawspeed binds for every sharp corner of a map is subjective though).

At each map, gamers will be forced to sacrifice their time setting up yawspeeds for every corner of a map since each map's composition of corners so to speak are different!!! It's a waste of time and reduces access to the game and competition.

If you are not going to ban it, then my other suggestion is to encourage it as much as possible and make it accessible.
For example, have keys for yawspeed 1, yawspeed 2, etc. under keyboard options. And let surfers copy the yawspeed set-ups of any replay bot, so they don't have to waste time on crafting these yawspeed set-ups themself.

I don't wanna ban having one yawspeed button like the bhop community have done since ever. I do also think people should be able to change their yawspeed. BUT NOT in run! if people are allowed to change their yawspeed in run, we will get all these issues listed above.

So maybe that is what I'm saying. It is not about banning having several yawspeed binds, but banning changing yawspeed under a run.

fingerprince

Yep I'm inclined to agree, whilst I'm sceptical of exactly how useful multiple yawspeeds are, the main reason I can think for someone to be changing it mid-run is if they're doing cheesy stuff like you say. It may be a bit annoying for some players not going for runs however, say they're a fairly new player who hasn't decided what yawspeed they want for spins yet and they want to test out different values mid run. In this case we can warn them that the change won't take affect til the run is over I suppose, not exactly sure the best way in the UI though (Momentum has a yawspeed slider in the settings, so we can't just print a warning in console). But yeah, I'm in favour of blocking changing yawspeed mid run.

rio

I think we should definitely prevent players from using more than one yawspeed value (plus the slowed amount when holding +speed) in a single run.

Enjoy

Does ksf prevent you from doing that? or why is this suddenly an issue?

BJack0

Does anyone have an example of multiple yawspeeds being used in a map, all I got from the original explanation was "yawspeed binds work", "new players have to set them up" and "its okay to have one yawspeed bind but not multiple".
I dont see how multiple values would help mid run and it just sounds like a mess to play with binds like that.

I also dont like the idea of removing +speed's effect on binds as its pretty useful and I don't see it harming a new players exsperience in-game. (but I could be wrong)

I don't wanna ban having one yawspeed button like the bhop community have done since ever.

What did the bhop community change about yawspeed

Lastly does any community ban/change yawspeed like Enjoy asked.

Aart

ksf does not ban it, but what ksf does doesn't matter.

Anyway i would hate for it to be banned, it would just make me unable to enjoy a lot of maps.
Personally i like to use low yawspeeds and low sensitivity when surfing. However a lot of maps have 1 turn or 1 spin that requires higher yawspeed or sensitivity for completion. If we remove the ability to switch yawspeeds i would simply not be able to surf these maps. Most common example would be royal and valpect where i use a different yawspeed for the spins.

I dont think people are gonna use different yawspeeds for every turn anyway. I have never heard of anyone who switches yawspeed more than once in a run anyway. and if they do it is because a part or skip is basically impossible or really inconsistent without it. So i feel like this is not a huge issue or i would like to be able to toggle to atleast 1 different yawspeed in a run.

Enjoy

My remark about ksf wasnt meant to say we should do what they did, but i would say its very relevant as ksf is probably the strictest server and i would bet they would disallow it if anyone actually tried to abuse it.

Ark_

KSF allowing something is probably a good metric for surf being that it basically is the canonical server in many ways, but realistically I don't think its necessary to allow more than 2 distinct values and their inverses (eg 180 and -180) in any run.

The solution i think is good is to completely revamp the system, remove the old commands entirely and instead only have 2, +spin and +spin2, which you can independently set the yawspeed for (not settable with timer running). The direction of spin is determined by the last strafe key you push, with a small timeout in between to prevent 100% sync via spam.

This would both simplify turn binds for new players and prevent the common exploits that you can use turnbinds for in the modes where that matters.

Enjoy

but why tho

Paddy

Reasons I think it should stay:

nobody actually cheeses maps by turnbinding every ramp with a toggle for the yawspeed on each one
even if they did, who cares? If they are good enough to get top/wr on the map with it, they can do it without, and if they really need it to just complete the map their time is not going to be significant on the leaderboard for top competition. (Keep in mind the people who would even consider using turnbinds in this way are overwhelmingly high level players with a ton of experience moving with turnbinds).
turnbind toggles are useful to have on maps with spins, especially in surf/bhop maps
more options for the player on an even playing field is preferable

As others have said, if you're really so worried about people "abusing" turnbind toggles, just limit it to at a minimum 3 speeds.

rio

I think allowing up to two configured speeds is reasonable (maybe just allow configuring the value +speed gives you?).

And if people don't currently change their yawspeed a lot to sort of automate their gameplay, then it shouldn't be a problem if we prevent that now in case things start inching more in that direction.

Jabra

Yeah okay, I can see the reason to allow up to either 2 or 3 yawspeed values. Especially on maps with abrupt changes like
valpect and so on.

Nobody have a yawspeed for every corner, Paddy, true. It was an exxageration. But if two yawspeed values help or three values help,
why wouldn't more values help (BJack0, the reason why it helps is because +left helps you to keep your mouse more steady and in control, and the ideal +left value depends on the sharpness of a turn obv.).
They do help, there is just a diminishing return, for each extra yawspeed you set up (that is usually not gonna outweight the cost of crafting a heavy "yawspeed set-up" because you have a life beside, and you care about other maps perhaps, and because the current rank systems are flawed because they reward people to spread their effort and farming points),
but any return can be worth it because fighting for the absolute smallest marginals is exactly the biggest you can achieve and the goal of anything in life.

And so will people do, especially on the campaign maps after 20 years (and remember that Momentum will measure sub-ticks!), or if they fight for 10k dollars, or if you have a rivalry with somebody, or if you have a competitive nature, a betting, etc.

More options and customization complicate the game, make it less accessible,
deterior people's moral ("I will never achieve this because I will have to do all this ... I have a fucking life beside. I have a study", "I have a family to raise, no need to waste my time on this").
It makes the game a game for nolifers, a game where the best gamers are the best gamers
because they have nolifed the most! Not because they are the most talented.
A game will that will live up to the cliche: gamers are nolifers!

But I can see the balance here I admit! For example, Aart tells us he wouldn't bother to play surf_valpect if he didn't have a second value.
It offers some flexibility that can give better access to competition, for example, if you have a slow mouse.
But for each extra yawspeed value that's gonna be allowed, there is a strong diminishing return that's not gonna be worth it.
By the way, I'm also a bit skeptical of how these yaw speed values can force a slow mouse sensitivity meta.

So yeah, up to 2-3 values I guess ... I can also understand if you think this is not relevant yet. But better be prepared.
Don't let the elite have insider strats. That deteriorates moral!

Jabra

I saw the question being asked on the Momentum Mod Team Q&A.

But why didn't you address the issue related to prestrafe yawspeed!!!!!

I thought Momentum Mod was meant to have gameplay that was universally compatible across different game modes.

But how the heck can you have that. Do you think KZ players want to use cl_yawspeed for their prestrafe?

That's why it can't work with yawspeed being determined by yourself. It has to be fixed. It has to be like on CS:GO.
210 and there is a shift, and then you just need a second button for speed up the yawspeed.

But since you haven't addressed this obvious issue, then I assume you are going to eradicate the natural prestrafe from all game modes!?

And if you have decided that, then remember ... Don't let the elite fuck us up with their insider strats! I know what they are going to do next. They are going to bind -left/-right (release yawspeed) at jump, just like you have taken height of that with regards to releasing w at prestrafe jump (good job). Do that with yawspeed as well before the inside stratters!

And also I was not clear enough why I don't like several yawspeeds. So let me tell you an analogy.

I wanna talk about the best game that was ever made by mankind: https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

This is the best game that was made because it puts you in a percentile in 20 seconds.

There is no preparation, no specialization. This is a test that creates comparable data straight ahead!!!

Peter is better than Kurt to table tennis, they tested that in an 11 point game. Kurt figured out that there is an exotic fruit that can increase his ability to play table tennis. He has to eat 1kg of this prior to a match. He does that, and he won against Peter in an 11 point game. But Kurt did not become better raw skills wise. He was just more specialized. So Peter eats 1kg of this fruit as well. Now he beats Kurt again.

So what is the issue? The issue is that the fruit is WASTING PETER'S TIME! He is better than Kurt raw skill wise, so the fact that he is forced to spend extra time eating this fruit ... is a waste of time.

Therefore, reaction test game is the best game that I ever explored. Also IQ tests are great games. The purpose of an IQ tests are exactly to compare. So if you can specialize yourself in an IQ test that would destroy the test!!! (and yeah, I know psychologists have issue with this)

BJack0

Jabra
I am all for removing things that can be used to either cheese maps or mechanics entirely, but I am still yet to see an actual example of what you are trying to illustrate.

You previously said "Gamers will be forced to sacrifice their time setting up yaw speeds for every corner of a map" but I have no knowledge of anyone ever trying this and I have never seen anyone including yourself show this being done.

From what I understand it sounds like you want everything to be the exact same for all players (Which I agree with), however, if you really take that idea to the extreme then removing the option to change your sensitivity should be removed as people would change there sensitivity to make it easier to be smooth in surf, instead of learning how to move there mouse incredibly smooth.

If you can actually show an example of this being an issue or can somehow explain it in a better way other than "It's a waste of time" which is subjective, then by all means this should be looked into until then it's a nonissue in my opinion.

Jabra

There are many things I can talk about and reply with ... It gets endless.

But look

https://www.reddit.com/r/SkillSurfing/comments/s315a2/turnbinds_for_csgo_v2/

These binds work independently of the game. There is no way to regulate it!

Therefore my stance is now to allow as many yawspeed binds as possible ... so people don't do it privately.