Should Momentum Mod use "Tricksurf" as the name for the trick gamemode?

Paddy

It was mentioned briefly in the most recent momentum qna stream that there has been consideration for changing the name of the "Tricksurf" gamemode to something less specificly tied to surf. This would have the benefits of giving mappers more freedom to place different styles of obstacles in their maps (without conflicting with the gamemode title), and more clearly defining what the tricks gamemode is about. With plans for future gamemode mixing and the trick system being designed to work with a variety of gamemodes, early adoption of a more generalized name could be beneficial.

Ark_

Honestly I think this is sorta the wrong question, or at least the wrong way to be thinking about it. Firstly because everyone already leans toward saying things like "trickjump" or "trickbhop" that its sort of obvious that "trick-" is really the name of the mode already, but its almost not allowed to be called "trick" on its own because of Trickz.

Unfortunately this is also muddied by the final implementation of the mode, whether trick is a submode that every mode has, or its own distinct mode with its own maps. Either could work, and gamemode_override exists for very nearly this exact purpose.

I think the best compromise is just to start talking about it as "Trick Mode", with "Mode" officially being part of the name, as "Trick Mode Surf" and "Trick Mode RJ" are reasonable things to say, and "Tricksurf" becomes an obvious shortening, while side stepping the issues of both Trickz and its final implementation into the game and the UI.

Paddy

Ark_ You have some interesting points, and I definitely agree that whatever the mode is called "tricks" probably runs into confusion for players about the multiplayer gamemode on css and should be avoided. The rest of your post is largely dependent on the definition of what the tricks mode is, and seems to focus on splitting up tricks between the gamemodes, and doesn't really fit with the third option you listed of having a distinct mode with its own maps of varying obstacle types. While this might be how the tricks mode ends up working out, as I touched on in my initial post there could be maps with multiple obstacles of different gamemode types, meaning a standalone map for the tricks category wouldn't fall under any specific "trick mode" as you put it. That is the main reason changing the mode name from Tricksurf. The solution to all of these problems that I like the most is a single, all encompassing name for the mode (freestyle, as Gocnak mentioned on the stream seems a good fit), that way no matter how the gamemode develops (your expectation of different "trick modes" for each unique gamemode, a mode that collects all trick maps, a mode with gamemode mixed maps that have different obstacle types, etc.) the mode name is clearly separated from the others. Players could easily start calling it "freestyle surf" or "freestyle bhop", while still just calling an ambiguous map of the the type "freestyle" with no added confusion.

Leesriize

Wasn't the suffix "tsurf_" already planned ?

Paddy

Leesriize So was the name Tricksurf, I don't see why that couldn't immediately be changed if the gamemode changes names.

Ark_

Paddy Realistically, any name could work, as long as it sounds like a modifier word. If for example we called it "Movement" (not a serious suggestion, just an example), that would fit right in with the other modes, and sound like its own thing, but sounds much less good as a modifier, "Movement Surf" or "movement bhop" sound stilted and strange to me.

"Freestyle" is a decent idea, but my suggestion of "Trick Mode" is mostly predicated on the basis of minimal change while still being different enough to not be confused with Trickz. It does seem kinda weird at first blush, but its a reasonable enough thing to say, makes perfect sense in context, and is subtle enough that we could make the change and nobody would actually notice we made the change while also starting to think the same way. It's a nearly perfect low social-friction change where we could make it and later find that everyone else suddenly agrees with us without noticing that they changed in the first place.

Gocnak

Something that's been in my mind is expansion past the original 10 modes. We've already seen it with Defrag getting 3 distinct styles, the desire for Beggars Bazooka and Trimping modes, potentially HL1-style bhop, and with Tricksurf expanding to its general "Tricks" mode now as well.

My current idea I have is to break modes into general "Gameplay Categories", with each playable thing a sub-mode underneath. For example, I can see Tricksurf becoming a "sub mode" of the Surf gameplay category, where the default mode is still Skill Surf. If we had plans for Combat Surf, it could also be a sub mode.

This way every mode that wants the trick system just gets it added as a "sub mode" under their respective category. "Trick Bhop" is just selecting the Bhop category and selecting the "Trick Bhop" sub-mode for it. Gameplay categories will be defined by the overall thing being done in it (BB is a type of RJ, so it fits under that, Tricks modes are the same technical gameplay but bite sized goals), with each sub mode defining its specialized way to play.

The UX would be designed to obviously favor the more popular "skill" modes, and we are a speedrunning game so I'm not sure about adding modes where there's actually no goal like "Freestyle" implies (though that can change 2.0.0+ if we want to). And technically by this definition, the campaigns become sub-modes of each mode that has one, but obviously the UX is gonna be different as it's an entirely separate part of the game.

This leaves the name of this Trick style mode. Freestyle would be nice but it implies there's no inherent goals, even though "complete a trick" technically is the goal. On the other hand, you're free to do which ever trick you want, tracked or not, and you can also just play around on the map because the triggers on it won't teleport you to a distinct starting location, and there's not really any filtered teleports or anything. But on the other other hand, "Tricks" could be considered misleading to those expecting it to be an arcade-like game like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater or something. And on the other other other hand, "Tricks" conflicts with "Trikz" game mode we aren't adding.

Between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe "freestyle" can be used to describe the "Trick <Mode>" mode itself? Maybe "Tech" could play into the name since it's a more technical mode? Not sure really.

Ark_

Gocnak Maybe "freestyle" can be used to describe the "Trick <Mode>" mode itself? Maybe "Tech" could play into the name since it's a more technical mode? Not sure really.

On the subject of Skateboarding, Freestyle does have some useful roughly analogous connotations so its not the worst name you could think of, but possibly not the most useful one.

Gocnak My current idea I have is to break modes into general "Gameplay Categories", with each playable thing a sub-mode underneath. For example, I can see Tricksurf becoming a "sub mode" of the Surf gameplay category, where the default mode is still Skill Surf. If we had plans for Combat Surf, it could also be a sub mode.

This way every mode that wants the trick system just gets it added as a "sub mode" under their respective category. "Trick Bhop" is just selecting the Bhop category and selecting the "Trick Bhop" sub-mode for it. Gameplay categories will be defined by the overall thing being done in it (BB is a type of RJ, so it fits under that, Tricks modes are the same technical gameplay but bite sized goals), with each sub mode defining its specialized way to play.

"Skill X" "Trick X" is I agree the most reasonable way to present the mode in game, and is a perfectly good mental model, but i'm not sure that as a whole its necessary for it to be considered as a distinct entity, I think a global optional modifier is good enough (assuming its possible to start any map in trick mode a la gamemode_override).

If the goal is just to oust the name "Trick", then I would say we should go all in on the idea, call them "Stunts" or something.

It's almost a shame that "Skill" has already been taken to mean the opposite of "Trick" (really the opposite of combat, but...) because "Skill mode" vs "Speed mode" would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Maybe the solution is just to not have a "master mode name", the only place that really needs one for organizational purposes is the discord, and the umbrella folder could just be "Trick Modes", and rather than just having a new folder for each mode with a #general and #mapping, keep adding new mode channels to the base trick mode one.

Or maybe don't even bother with that, and instead move all sub-modes channels to be under their respective mode, after all tricksurf has a lot more to do with surf than trickRJ, and arguably the existing submodes like BB RJ and Angle Surf deserve their own channels, and that would be the reasonable place for them. Defrag already needs this done and should be split up into CPM, VQ3, and MMDF already just so people know what is being talked about and we have less of the previous confusion.

Jabra

just like you to notice this feature about the name trick: tr(i/a)ck or trck. i like how track and trick fit because track is the name of an "unit of completion" in speedrunning, and then the name of an unit of completion in trick mode is trick.

but then to assure even better harmony, then speedrunning/skill is track mode xd

and then momentum as whole is a trck mode game

just some loose reflections 😃